Monday, January 10, 2005

Answers..

Okay.. About my DEAD GOBLIN COUNT.
It has been brought to my attention that people care about my welfare. These people continually remind me of the “rest of the story” in regards to a lethal force encounter. Things such as:

  • You will be arrested
  • Your house will be searched, including having your computer searched!
  • Background investigated
  • May not be able to get work with the City, County or State Government
  • Your gun will be taken into evidence
  • You may appear in court
  • You may have to deal with relatives
  • You may have nightmares
  • Economic Hardship due to incurring court costs
  • Social stigma of having “killed” somebody

Did I get them all?
So, let me set up the scenario:
Bad guy breaks into my house, and intends to rob me, and possible do my family and myself grave bodily harm. My plan, as it stands, is to run down the hall, grab my son, and run back to my room. With my family firmly entrenched in my room, I use my phone, (if that has been compromised, I have my cell phone in my room) and call 911, and wait for the cavalry. Now, I know that there is the possibility that they could take quite a bit of time to respond, so I am armed to protect my family. Now, you will notice that I have NOT gone charging down my stairs to confront the Goblin. Why? Because EVERYTHING of significant value is locked in our safe. All they could take is our $200 TV, our $69 DVD player, etc. None of those things is worth my life, or that of my family.
So, let’s take the scenario a step further. Our goblin is not satisfied with the TV and DVD player, he decides to head UPSTAIRS. Now our bad guy is forcing his way into my bedroom, my shelter, my SECURED room. He forces his way through our locked door, the police are not there yet, and my family’s only hope is for ME to stop the threat. I must protect them.
Now, because I take this responsibility VERY seriously, I train regularly. I also take classes on the Legal Aspects as well as the Psychological ramifications of a lethal force encounter. Will I be arrested if I am forced to shoot someone? Probably, it will depend very much on the situation. Will my house be searched? Almost certainly, but having someone paw through my underwear drawer is a very small price to pay for the life of my family. Will my background be investigated? Um… Again? I get my background checked about 3 times a year (6 times last year!) so that is no big deal. My computer checked, ummm, big deal, (the nudie pics are in the file called “Nekkid Gurls”!) I will not be able to work for the government… Explain this to me. I already work for the county, but I won’t be able to get another job, why? And, why would I have to explain myself to them? What would there be to explain? A man tried to kill me and my family, so I protected them, end of story. My gun will be taken into evidence. YES, and it should be. It is evidence, and was used to end someone’s life, so by all rights, it will be tagged as evidence. I will have to appear in court. This is questionable. Since the bad guy is going to have to break through my front door, come up stairs, and break in MY bedroom door, I think he has established that he is NOT there to sell girl scout cookies. I would expect to be interviewed by the Police, (fine) the DA, (yucky lawyers, but still OK) but a judge? Am I being charged with a crime? No, then I will probably never see a judge. I might get sued, um, yah, let’s take that to court.
Family: “Judge, my son broke into his house and tried to kill Rescue Mike, but he killed my son instead. I want the millions of dollars Rescue Mike cheated me out of.”
And my personal favorite..
”If the police/D.A./bad guy’s attorney finds your “dead goblin count,” the lawyers will crucify you. (You come across like a guy that wants to prove something.)”

Well, thanks! By the way, why would they crucify me? For reporting when a citizen exercises his second amendment rights and protects him/herself or their family?

By the way folks, I have been repeated accused, and indeed threatened on this blog. That is no big deal, but get this straight. In this country, when arrested, YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! And it is the burden of the State to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So don’t tell me I’ll be crucified, or executed, or hung out to dry for protecting myself. I hope and pray that this never happens. I don’t know what I will do if it does, other than keep my family safe and NOT leave the locked sanctuary of my room. I have been shot, I have seen others shot, I know EXACTLY the destructive power a firearm contains, and believe me, I NEVER want to be forced to pull that trigger.

So please, read some of my previous posts before you come off telling me I have something to prove or that I am just looking for a fight, or that I don’t understand what will happen if this occurs. Most of my readers are either firefighters, (who have seen some shit, I promise) or they are current or former military and Law Enforcement. Guess what, none of them have seen fit to tell me how I am going to rot in jail, or how the DA is going to “Crucify” me. Thanks!

17 comments:

Baby Chicken said...

Thank you for protecting us! We, as parents, must be willing to go through a lot of "hassle" and a lot of real heartache to protect our children. If that day ever comes I will be there to back you up or take the point if necessary. Every bad thing you described is a small price to pay to know that our son will be alive.

And we will take every precaution to avoid that encounter!

TheBitterAmerican said...

This is utterly ridiculous, Mike, Since when can't you post stories - clearly from public records - about people who get what they deserve?

I, for one, constantly pass this stories on to my like-minded friends.

Roberto Allende said...

Hmmm.

So, let’s use your scenario:

Bad guy breaks into your house, you (wisely) grab your child and wife and hide in the room and you dial 911.

So, you’re sitting there waiting for the police (again smart) and you hear the bad guy down stairs in the kitchen and you’re mind starts to wonder…wait til I tell the guys what happened!!!

The burglar because he’s just a common burglar and not a complete idiot takes your $ 69 DVD player and leaves within 2 minutes.

And then you realize that when you tell your buddies what happened, you have to tell them: Yea, some guy broke into my house and I was hiding in my room with my wife and kid.

Fine, if you’re willing to take risk, make sure you have the balls to tell your friends – particularly, your gun fighting associates – and the cops that you were hiding upstairs like a little girl while a real live burglar was desecrating your house (Well, that’s how some of your buddies might explain it to your friends).

Hmmm, I wonder if you just might be tempted to go after the guy. After all, you’re a trained master gun fighter, right?

But the reality is that bad guys get scared like other human beings and most will flee if they know that you’re inside. But, if someone does try to smash in your door as you described, that’s fine: blast away.

In any event, here’s the problem with your “self defense” program:

You’re not going to be home 24/7. Likely, you’ll be working 24 hours a day, 10 days a month or whatever.

So, your plan is only good for 20 out of 30 days a month. That’s pretty dreadful.

Furthermore, a real “house invader” is also going to plan it and that means that they’ll hit when you are not home. (Let me guess: Does your wife and baby come outside and wave you “bye bye” in full view of the world?)

Newspapers may call a common burglar a “house invader.” The shooter may call the common burglar a “house invader.” The police may not (well, maybe in Texas) and the guy’s attorney will not.

In my eyes, a house burglar is a “light-weight” felon. Because lawyers, courts, and judges deal with these guys on a daily basis, some of them will likely consider common burglars little more than petty thieves. They’re not going to be too impressed with you shooting one or two of them.

Have you talked to a lawyer about what to do if you shoot somebody? (I don't have the time to explain to you why your blog might hurt you).

Have you talk to citizens who have actually shot someone in your community?

Did your lawyer tell you what to say?

Does your wife know what to do? Is she trained to shoot too since you’ll be gone 1/3 of the time?

Do you have your lawyer’s business card handy?

You spend how much on guns and how much on locks and other self defense measures?

There are criminal and there are civil courts.

I guarantee you, civil court DOES not require “guilt beyond a reasonable doubt” and you’re not on the ball if you haven’t noticed how many “convicted people” have been released from prison when DNA proved that they were innocent.

Now, this blog is open to the public so I don’t want to know your business. I just want you to consider it and although you said that you have, I’m not convinced. I’ve seen too many people get burned because they’re buddies got them into that type of “kill them all, let God sort it out" way of thinking.

Finally, I don’t know anything about the other people who you mentioned in your blog but what did you expect? Do you think that everyone is going to see your Dead Goblin “hobby’ as beneficial to humanity?

I’m sorry that you were shot.

[Recommended Reading]

Unintended Consequences

Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense

http://www.vpc.org/studies/unincont.htm

Roberto Allende said...

Subliminal Kool-Aid:

I’m not overly impressed with your “I know someone who knows someone” who shot someone anecdote.

Sounds like she was convicted of a crime. I’m pretty sure you left out one or two relevant details.

Roberto Allende said...

Oh, I forgot.

Call the local police/sheriff and see if they have a crime prevention specialist that can visit your house and look for ways to make your home safer.

Rescue Mike said...

Aacantha, You make some excellent points! Let me address just a few real quick.

First off, although I might have the training, I also know enough to know I never want to use it! And my buddys would be just as happy to do the exact same thing. We have all been on the sharp-end already, and aren't impressed by the guys who want to "kill 'em all and let God sort them out". Remember, just because you're hung like a horse doesn't mean you have to do porn!

Second, honestly, I would be just as happy telling all my friends that someone broke into my house and all I did was keep my family safe. There is no point in pushing a bad situation worse, when I can sit there and be a good father/husband by NOT abandoning my wife and son, to try and go get shot. Again, my friends would respect TAHT one hell of a lot more than me rushing downstairs with guns a-blazing!

As far as a Home-burgler being a light weight, I would have to disagree. Most of these guys, at least around here, are repeat offenders, usually supporting a meth habit, and that makes them even MORE dangerous. Another reason to sit tight and let the cops handle it!

I won't get into the Lawyer aspect.

As for my wife, let's just say she'll do, and leave it at that.

As for the rest, well, that's nobodys business...

Aacantha.. I have truly enjoyed this! You have brought about well thought out, coherent, intelligent questions! If we ever meet, I would love to sit down, and buy you a cuppa coffee!

Oh, and I noticed that your Blog says you served in the Armed Forces, THANK YOU! Thanks for serving our country, for being willing to go into harms way for us, and for defending this Great Nation!

Roberto Allende said...

Hello:

Good, it sounds that you are well prepared and have great friends.

I like guns and I like to go shooting too.

Thank you for your kind words.

Best wishes.

Roberto Allende said...

Subliminal Kool-Aid:

Your vague statement about just getting a “ticket” is precisely what I object to.

Newspapers reporting citizen shootings don’t give us all of the facts.

You are not giving us all of the facts. What you are saying does not make any sense.

You make it sound as if she was given a traffic ticket and free to go after ten minutes.

In most cities, “Discharging a Firearm Within City Limits” is a misdemeanor.

More plausible:

She was ARRESTED, cited, and released.

She goes to court and she is CONVICTED and given a reduced fine.

I’m also willing to bet that they were tempted to charge her with something more serious but they decided to settle or plea bargain on “Discharging a Firearm Within City Limits.”

They did it to TEACH her a lesson about shooting people and to make sure she thinks twice about shooting someone.

Read:

108th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 648
Citizens' Self-Defense Act of 2003'.

(3) Law-abiding citizens, seeking only to provide for their families' defense, are routinely prosecuted for brandishing or using a firearm in self- defense.

http://www.constitution.org/legis/03hr0648.htm

It’s sounds like pro-gun hype and I’m suspicious with the bill’s outdated examples but I know that courts don’t like citizens shooting people.

Please check your facts.

I’ll read your reply as a courtesy but I’m done arguing this point on this blog.

Be safe.

Baby Chicken said...

Everyone has made some good arguements and intelligent comments here. This is not a simple issue to discuss, like politics or religion. Everyone has an opinion and most people think they are right.

Like most things in life, each person must decide for themselves what they will do (regardless of the laws and court decisions). And like all important decisions, we SHOULD give this one a lot of foresight and plan out what will happen. When we think about our emergency plans, most of us consider fires, power outages, storms, things of that sort.

In school our children are taught what to do if the fire alarms go off. But what if they are home during a home invasion?

It is not enough to have a plan, you also need to have a backup plan. Keep a cell phone upstairs(or in the back room) in case the landline is compromised, gather the family, evacuate if possible, and if all else fails - defend yourself and your family with force.

I can respect anyone who thinks ahead and considers what they would do, where they would draw the line. What I cannot respect is anyone who thinks they have the ONLY right answer or anyone who refuses to think about it at all.

I know people who would rather get raped and killed, watch their family be tortured and murdered, than pick up a gun and defend them. I don't understand it and I certainly don't agree, but at least they have thought about it.

As for the "dead goblin" count - why is it so unacceptable to feel cheered about those people who, by their own choice, have been removed from this world? I do not subscribe to the idea that any living person has the right to exist at the expense of the rest of us.

I know each of these people have a mother, father, family. So what? If we do such a poor job of raising our son that he violates the basic principles of society, and some homeowner is forced to kill him, I will cry and mourn his death. I will be haunted the rest of my life. But I will not blame the citizen who took his life. If he is convicted and sentenced to death, I will comfort him and help him come to terms with his fate, but it will have been a consequence of his own choices.

To say that these are merely "light-weight" felons removes some of the responsibility from the felon. It is like blaming the homeowner - "if he had just stayed in his room" "if she would just relax and enjoy the inevitable".

Despicable.

Tom said...

Ok, from personal experience (on the professional end) Burglary IS a felony.
from the REVISED CODE OF WASHINGTON website:


RCW 9A.52.020
Burglary in the first degree.
(1) A person is guilty of burglary in the first degree if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, he or she enters or remains unlawfully in a building and if, in entering or while in the building or in immediate flight therefrom, the actor or another participant in the crime (a) is armed with a deadly weapon, or (b) assaults any person.

(2) Burglary in the first degree is a class A felony.

RCW 9A.52.030
Burglary in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of burglary in the second degree if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, he enters or remains unlawfully in a building other than a vehicle or a dwelling.

(2) Burglary in the second degree is a class B felony

RCW 9A.52.025
Residential burglary.

1) A person is guilty of residential burglary if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, the person enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling other than a vehicle.

(2) Residential burglary is a class B felony. In establishing sentencing guidelines and disposition standards, the sentencing guidelines commission and the juvenile disposition standards commission shall consider residential burglary as a more serious offense than second degree burglary

If an assailant attempted to assault RM's family, they just raised the stakes to burg 1st, whish is no "lightweight felony", not to mention any weapons enhancements that are thrown on top.

I've known RM for quite a while, and I realize that not everyone who reads his blog has. To assume that RM would be thinking "wait until I tell the guys about THIS" while his family was in jeopardy is downright insulting to RM and his intelligence. Some of the rhetoric I've read in the comments section of this post seem to amount to typical fearmongering seen from the left wing.

That being said, thank you, Acanthas (sp?) for serving your country.

Roberto Allende said...

Hello:

Last night, I checked the sentencing in Oregon just for the fun of it. I originally decided to drop the issue but it seems that people still want to talk about it and I really want to know if my perceptions are correct or not.

As of January 1, 2002, there were 828 people in prison for burglary in Oregon.

http://www.crimevictimsunited.org/issues/corrections/

In 2001, the average sentence for burglary in Oregon is 30 months. In 1986, it was 19 months.

http://www.ocjc.state.or.us/overview.htm

I think that it would include time WITH any enhancements.

I stop searching because I dropped the issue so I would want to check for more sources before I trust this data.

In any event, in my eyes, people going to prison for an average of 30 months are “light-weight” felons.

And we all know that it is common for the courts to accept a plea bargain for a lesser crime.

My Hypothesis: Our government does not want citizens shooting “light-weight” felons even if they’re in your house.

As a research project: If a homeowner shoots someone inside their house, is it assumed that the person was a threat or does the burden of proof rest with the homeowner? I think each state is different. In Texas, for example, I think that the burglar is assumed to be a threat.

I’ll check for sources in California. Of course, I don’t trust 1 or 2 web sources, so I’ll look for three citations.

Let’s have fun and learn something new.

Thanks for your kind comments. I was a military police officer in Germany. It was a real picnic compared to what they are facing in Iraq or Afghanistan now.


-------------------------------

FYI: California

CPC 461. Burglary is punishable as follows:

1. Burglary in the first degree: by imprisonment in the state
prison for two, four, or six years.

2. Burglary in the second degree: by imprisonment in the county
jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.

Baby Chicken said...

I call BULLSHIT!

First, we should not depend on the courts to be the touchstone of morality.

Second, nobody WANTS us to shoot anyone, but the law ALLOWS us to defend ourselves, other human life, and (in some states) even our property.

Third, the brilliant folks in Oregon can't even afford to maintain a respectable State Patrol force, they have to close prisons and implement early releases. So to use those sentences as a guide doesn't make any sense.

Fourth, sentencing in general is a poor guide, "the system" routinely releases sex offenders (after pitifully short sentences) who are categorized as having a high risk of re-offending. Our courts routinely place the "rights" of the criminal above that of society in general.

But back to the real topic - defending yourself or your family. Since when should you ask permission from ANYONE before stopping someone intent on harming your family? No responsible parent or spouse!

The key is to avoid such situations, take every precuation to prevent such occurances, and train like hell to defend against threats.

Roberto Allende said...
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Roberto Allende said...
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Roberto Allende said...
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Rescue Mike said...

Oh No Aacantha.. I truly enjoy your comments and welcome them! You have brought up excellent points! What we seem to have been unable to articulate is that most of the things you point out are things we have covered in our training. However, there are some we either haven't covered, (that will be remedied) or things that we don't agree with or really don't apply here.

I personally like your posts and look forward to reading them. AND seeing how this is MY blog, I am asking you to feel free to post ANYTIME! Whether or not we agree is not necessary. Having an intelligent discourse about a particular topic is how we all learn and grow as people, and I think everyone here would agree with me.

By the way, when were you in Germany as a MP? I have a friend who was there a few years ago, maybe you guys ran into each other. (wouldn't that be a trip!)

Rescue Mike said...

OK, I accidentally deleted the last post by Aacantha, here it is:
---------------------------------
Hello Baby Chicken:

Let's go back to my original objections. Let's go back to what set me off in the first place.

In the 1980's, some gun magazines had a section where they cited cases where citizens used their guns to defend themselves.

However, as I observed in law enforcement, they don't articulate that these citizens are frequently handcuffed and detained at police stations.

I don't like 'pro-gun' one-sided stories because they give people a misunderstanding of when they can use their weapons. They create a false sense of security because they don't explain the 'wear and tear' of shooting someone. These reports omit that people are frequently treated as CRIMINALS during the process.

News reports don't clearly explain that self defense measures are scrupulously reviewed by prosecuting attorneys that often don't like citizens 'taking the law into their own hands.'

Many people are not ready to go through a terrible ordeal because the NRA and other gun rights groups deviously and intentionally ignore the drawbacks of self-defense.

Train all you want, part of survival involves knowing what MIGHT happen to you after you shoot someone.

Of course, I want people to defend themselves. If people got more involved, there would be less crime. If a burglar knew that 10 neighbors would be on his ass with guns, he wouldn't commit burglaries.

I'm not passive. I'm not a pacifist. I'm not against guns. I am not against defending yourself.

I don't like off-handed comments about shooting people because there are too many untrained people with guns that might take it to heart that it's okay to shoot bad guys for simply being a bad guy. I am against NRA sponsored news stories that do not portray all of the facts because that gets people in trouble.

Unlike the NRA, I'm trying to tell you that even if you are 100% justified; bad things might happen to you so you should be prepared.

It is the state that does not want citizens to shoot "light-weight" felons. You are mistaken if you think that judges and criminal lawyers perceive common burglars as serious criminals.

In California:

You should not shoot a burglar inside your house for being a common burglar. You should not shoot a burglar if he is in the process of stealing property.

You surely cannot shoot someone for stealing your car in your drive way or breaking into your shed in the back yard.

You may shoot to protect against murder, arson, [*burglary], rape, kidnapping, and mayhem.

[NOTE: In California, if someone for example, commits an ADW or robbery or felony inside the home, they can be charged with burglary. They are not talking about a typical theft.]

The homeowner has the burden of proof to prove that he or she was threatened.

The homeowner is not obligated to retreat inside his home.

California does not consider common burglary as a dangerous felony.

http://www.professorbowie.com/Lecture%20Thirteen.htm

http://riskmgmt.biz/attorney/criminallawoutline.htm

Law School Outline:

The Model Penal Code, as well as common law, treats human life very, very highly. The sanctity of human life is valued so highly that the law doesn't even want 'bad guys' killed unless it's absolutely necessary. [I will also assert that they don't want 'bad guys' shot either.]

http://lawschool.mikeshecket.com/criminallaw/criminallawoutline.htm#_Toc58923283

I simply used the sentencing guideline to show you that governments don't take burglars seriously. I did not imply that it was fair.

For goodness sake, the typical sentence for homicide is 167.8 months or 14 years (If our life is only worth 14 years, that's sounds like a good reason for defending ourselves because nothing serious will happen to the killer.)

You may not need their permission but you will need to get their APPROVAL after the fact so you might want to understand their rules.

As the UK Attorney General recently said, "Burglars have rights too."

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/12/nfight12.xml

I'm pretty sure that there are American lawyers that agree with him.

Don't trust me. I might be wrong.

Talk to a criminal lawyer and find out what are your options. Ask a lawyer if you should talk to the police or wait for the lawyer before you talk to the police. Ask the lawyer if people in your community are handcuffed / detained / charged for defending themselves.

Part of being prepared is being able to show the legal system that you took preventive measures:

* Have the local police do a crime prevention survey at your house for security flaws.

* Have good locks on your doors. Have good lighting. Have non-deadly weapons like pepper spray to show the courts that your first option was not deadly force but reasonable force.

* Have a lawyer on standby.

I'm not trying to piss you off so if you want me to stop writing, please let me know and I'll never post here again.

Recommended Reading: A Nation of Cowards by Jeffrey R. Snyder

http://crewscustom.com/cowards.htm

I found this:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

---------------

The innocence that feels no risk and is taught no caution, is more vulnerable than guilt, and oftener assailed - Nathaniel P. Willis.